Dr. Mehdi Semati is an Associate Professor of Communication at Eastern Illinois University whose teaching and research areas include International Communication, Media and Popular Culture, and Cultural Studies. Dr. Semati's books include Media, Culture, and Society in Iran: Living with Globalization and the Islamic State, New Frontiers in International Communication Theory, and Studies in Terrorism: Media Scholarship and the Enigma of Terror. A book of his scholarly articles in Farsi was published in Iran as The Age of CNN and Hollywood: National Interest, Transnational Communication (2006, Nashr-e Nay). We conducted an interview with Dr. Semati about underground music in Iran and its differences with western underground music.

7sang.com - It seems that the meaning of underground music in Iran and in western countries is different. In Iran, any music that does not get legal permission from the governmental institution, Ershad (Guidance) ministry, and be distributed in another way rather than official distribution is called underground music. But in western countries there is no such a thing as legal permission. Yet, the concept of underground music comes from the west. It appears that underground music in the west is the different and protesting music. What actually is underground music and what are its characteristics?

Semati - Perhaps it is a good idea that we start with the concept of underground itself before we discuss underground music. It has several connotations. The dictionary definition of “underground” includes the following: hidden, concealed; clandestine; of or relating to organizations that are secret, illegal and hostile toward a government or a political movement. It also refers to artistic groups or movements that are innovative (such as avant-garde). As a concept in art it has the connotation of being experimental in both artistic and social domains. “Underground music” as a label, however, is more ambiguous than it might appear initially. It is more a manner of speaking about music that stands in contrast to “mainstream” music. It is more a way of distinguishing music with fewer followers and with limited commercial potential than identifying specific genre or form of music. As a label, it covers a wide range of musical traditions and genres (e.g., jazz, rap, rock). Therefore, we would have to talk about a specific genre in order to discuss its characteristics as “underground” music (I will discuss rock below because it is probably the most familiar genre for the readers). In this context, one might say “underground” for many is synonymous with “alternative” or “indie” (“independent”) music, which is usually associated with “independent” record companies. The only common characteristic among various musical forms and types labeled underground is that they (at least initially) appeal to narrower cultural, political, and artistic sensibility and taste. This last point is worth pondering a bit more.

There is a tradition of music in the West called “protest music” or “protest song.” This should not be confused with “underground.” Protest music does not necessarily come from “underground” or a new artistic movement. They could come from the mainstream of musical taste in society. Songs protesting social injustice, racism, war, poverty and inequality have often come from mainstream of American music. By the time Jimi Hendrix wrote “Machine Gun” as a protest song against the Vietnam War he was a well-established and popular rock musician in America. Marvin Gaye’s album “what’s going on,” which included reflections on poverty, social decay, and war, came from widely popular musical genres of “soul” and “R&B” (Rhythm and Blues). I should also add that “underground” music is not necessarily (social) protest music. Rappers such as “Beastie Boys” were part of early history of rap, but they were not protesting anything in the socio-political sense. The most famous song from their first rap album was called “Fight for your Right.” Although this title sounds like it is about social protest, the full title and the words make it clear this is a teenagers’ call for having a good time, for the full title is “You Gotte Fight for your Right to Party!” This is a different “fight” from what a politically-inclined rap group such as “Public Enemy” has in mind when they call to “Fight the Power.”

“Underground” music, however, usually entails music that is innovative in both form and content, to use a familiar terminology. Underground music is often embraced by a particular “subculture”, which sees itself outside the mainstream of society. The content of “Punk,” for example, was an anti-establishment music that denigrated authority, social norms and conformity. Its form was also different. It emerged partly as a protest against the polished sound of the 1970s rock, which it saw as the sound of the “establishment.” Punk’s “style” of music was an anti-style. Those who played it often either lacked professional skills in playing instruments or did not care to produce professional sounds that would be recognizable. One ethos of punk was that anybody could do it. Some have called that ethos “DIY” (“do it yourself”). You needed no “expertise” as a musician to make music. From “Sex Pistols,” to “Ramones”, to “Talking Heads,” we have often heard how they (at least at the beginning) knew little about the way professional and trained musicians played their instruments, made music or wrote songs.

Punk was more than a musical taste. It also entailed a “subculture,” with its sense of fashion and “lifestyle.” In many ways they wanted to offend the sensibility of mainstream society and the prevailing social and cultural norms.

7sang.com - What are the characteristics of language and subjects used in the western underground music?

Semati - As I alluded to it in my previous answer, “underground” music covers a wide range of subjects, forms, preoccupations and lyrical styles insofar as it covers various genres and musical forms. They have addressed from mundane to extreme experiences: they have covered, for example, racism, social injustice, sex, patriarchy and sexism, nihilism, war, parental authority, political repression, and economic inequality. They have used various lyrical styles, from beautiful poetry of “folk” music to a language of rock and rap that many find offensive. In the U.S., record companies voluntarily mark such music with a warning label that reads: “Parental Advisory: Explicit Lyrics.”

7sang.com - What are the differences between the subjects of underground music in Iran and in the west?

Semati - In appears to me that Iranian underground music is also covering a wide range of subjects. Since many of the musical acts in Iran do not have the legal permission, the content becomes “underground” automatically, no matter how mundane the subject matter is. Regardless, I see a wide range of issues covered by musicians in Iran. Rapper EMZipper’s “konkoor” speaks to a widely known social experience by the youth and their families. Then there is the example of the experience of falling in love, nuclear energy, dissing the competition, bragging about one’s neighborhood, bragging about one’s skills in rapping, wanting to get married,… These are some of the examples of the subjects covered by underground music in Iran. We should point out, of course, that in the West a wider range of social groups have made underground or protest music (e.g., women, minorities).

7sang.com - Underground music – especially rap and rock – was popular in west in the 70s and 80s. But in Iran this music has became popular in the last two or three years. What is the reason for this delay?

Semati - This is a very interesting but complicated question, and the answer requires a larger space than I have here. We can observe that many cultural phenomena travel from North to South (or West to East) with a time lag. While it might take a long time for some cultural phenomena to travel, it takes less time for others to arrive. International communication technologies, the movement of people, and all those things we call globalization have helped reduce the time lag, although it still exits for some phenomena. We call these cultural “flows” in international communication. Phenomena such as fashion tend to travel faster. If we look at the characteristics of the cultural phenomena themselves and not the condition of their adoption, we may conclude that, in general, those cultural flows that require “linguistic proximity” or larger “cultural proximity” for their adoption take longer to be absorbed or to go through a process of “indigenization.” Similarly, it is interesting to note that an intellectual movement such as “Cultural Studies” has relatively taken a long time to be taken up in Iran and to become a part of the Iranian intellectual landscape.

7sang.com - What social or cultural changes have occurred in Iran that has made underground music more popular in recent years?

Semati - Among the cultural reasons an important one would have to be the acceptance of “pop” music by the officials and the government. To the extent that permits have been issued and one can hear pop music of various kinds freely on radio and purchase it on the street corner, pop music has lost its “subversive” character or its legitimacy as a credible voice of the youth culture. [Raz-e-shab is an example of permission issued]. This is why rock and especially rap have become the preferred cultural forms for the youth as underground music. Rap is more important in this context because rapping as a form of “poetry” might require less familiarity with classical forms of poetry in the Persian tradition.

As for the socio-political reasons we could briefly mention a few changes. One is the availability of Internet and other forms of digital communication technologies that allow access and sharing of information, music files, and interests within and across borders. Internet has also facilitated gathering and association, competitions and exchange when it comes to music. As an example we could cite tehranavenue.com. This site hosted the “Underground Music Competition” in 2002, which was an on-line music festival in which listeners listened to songs and voted through the website. This trend is obviously part of the expansion of the cultural expressions that have been enabled by the Internet (7sang belongs to the same context). Other larger factors that have contributed to the present context are the young population of Iran, the rise in literacy, the increase in number of universities and university students with access to Internet, and the rise in urbanization. An educated, young, urban population with access to information cannot be isolated from larger global youth cultures. Moreover, to the extent that those segments of the youth which finds its voice marginalized by the official culture, they will find a way to express themselves. If the space of expression is not made available to them, they will create that space on way or another.

7sang.com - Comparing Iranian underground music with the underground music of other countries, what do you think about the criticizing and protesting aspect of this music?

Semati - Media, culture and communication forms and expressions in all societies operate with certain constraints and possibilities. These include religious, cultural, political, and economic constraints. In the United States, for example, news media operate with relatively few political constraints, as the American ideology values “freedom of expression” highly. However, it would be simplistic to think American media operate without any constraints. One of the biggest factors that limit the range of political expressions in the media in the Unites State is commercial or economic constraint:
Commercial media (working for profit) will not accommodate certain content fearing they might offend those who pay the costs of production (be it advertisers or audiences who might the find the content offensive). It should be pointed out that in capitalist societies with fewer social and political restrictions (such as the US and Western Europe) there is a dialectic between “mainstream” and “underground” culture. In order to maximize profit, the commercial system is constantly looking for “new” and “different” cultural forms and expressions and artistic practices. “Difference” drives the engine in today’s capitalist economies. Given the time lag we discussed earlier, it is no wonder that rap is now the “underground” music in Iran, whereas rap and hip hop are now a thoroughly commercial (i.e., at the heart of mainstream) cultural form in North American and Western Europe.

In a society like Iran these constraints and possibilities exist in accordance with our own cultural, religious, and political frameworks. Arguably, since we have more constraints, especially political constraints, and since such music is not recognized by the official culture, it becomes by definition “underground.” Given fewer political and social constraints, and stronger traditions of protecting freedom of expression, there is a smaller range of music that can be recognized as “underground” in the West based on political and social limits in principle. This means there is a vast area that can be covered by underground musicians in Iran, and they are doing that (as I said before, many subjects are being covered by this music). At the same time, the limits of acceptable expression are not entirely political. Our own religious, cultural and other social norms provide the limits of permissible expression, which in turn are contested by segments of popular youth culture.

7sang.com - What social class follows underground music more in the west? Is there any difference between the social classes of composers of underground music in Iran and in the west?

Semati - This is an area where we can locate some differences between the experience of “underground” music in Iran and the experience of popular music that started outside of the mainstream in the West. In Iran underground music seems to be made and listened to, for the most part, by those who come from a relatively more privileged background (i.e., from middle class, upper middle class, or upper class) in comparison to their counterparts in the West. Rap has its origins in the economically-impoverished inner-city experience of the American blacks. Both rock and punk movements and their various offshoots had also “working class” components. It appears that such working class components are absent in the case of underground music in Iran, although we need more research in this area to make definitive statements. What is unique about Iranian experience is that we have a large young, urban, and educated population, but access to Internet, communication technologies, “linguistic and cultural proximity” (knowledge of English language and Western popular culture) might be limited based on class differences (concepts such as cultural capital or social capital could be useful here). As I said, empirical research is needed to make definitive statements, but that might be hard to do in a context where “underground” music is not simply outside of the mainstream but is illegal.

7sang.com - Underground music is usually the voice of protest and is composed by the minority groups of the society. But in Persian underground music there are some songs that are in accordance with the viewpoints of the government. For instance, some songs were composed about nuclear energy, which are the repetition of what is said in television channels or papers that belong to the government. What do you think about this function of underground music in Iran?

Semati - This is another interesting and complex question about underground music in Iran. I think we can only answer it by addressing each specific case, each musician or group and each song and album without generalizations. However, some elements of this type of confluence, coincidence, or co-option of rhetoric, language, and sentiments can be explained within the parameters we have defined for the operation of underground music in Iran. If we take the example of nuclear energy and its embrace as “our absolute right” by an Iranian rapper 0111, we can explore it as a nationalist response to bullying by global centers of power in general and American hegemony in particular. To the extent that rap and hip hop are parts of the global youth culture, and to the extent that Iranians youths are “plugged” into the global youth culture via Internet, satellite television, film and other popular cultural forms, then they are bound to formulate a local response to the larger global currents (in this case political currents) in one way or another at one time or another. Genuine nationalism or patriotism might appear as a spontaneous response to the larger global forces. American musicians have produced much nationalist and patriotic music. I should add that this is only one dimension of the complex of issues involved. What I have in mind by nationalism in this context is the arrival of reflexivity or the appearance of a certain global consciousness. The task of the local cultural critic or commentator is to separate in each case genuine and spontaneous expression on a given topic from otherwise opportunistic responses by groups who may want to please the officials or the Ministry of Culture and Islamic Guidance.

7sang.com - There has always been a relationship between the music composed inside Iran (a part of which is underground music) and the music composed outside the country (specifically in Los Angeles). In previous years, some people believed that the music composed inside the country was an imitation of the music composed in LA. With the improvement and growth of underground music in Iran, has this relationship changed?

Semati - The short answer is yes. However, popular music everywhere in the world involves imitation, “borrowing” and “paraphrasing” existing music. Imitation exists everywhere and in most genres of popular music. Rock music would not exist without it. Of course we can always find cases of direct borrowing or imitation, but that is not unique to Iran. The case of Iran is interesting in this regard insofar as this borrowing happens in the context of a trans-border popular culture of Iran, some of which remains unrecognized by the state and the official culture inside Iran. However, I should point out the acceptability of pop in Iran has meant its expansion not just in terms of volume but also at a creative level. The sound of pop music coming out of Iran (underground or on the radio) is very impressive and in my view could produce a commercially viable music industry (if the state can find a way to negotiate a larger space for it to expand on the existing formats and contents). In this context I should also add that some of the pop music in Los Angeles has begun to imitate the pop music that comes out of Iran. Benyamin’s music is very popular with the Iranian youths (or Iranian diasporic youths) in the United States and elsewhere. I believe the rap music coming out of Iran is much more diverse in style, content, and creative mixing of existing genres of rap than what is being produced outside of Iran by Iranian diasporic youths. It is interesting that rappers in Iran have been more aggressive and creative in terms of engaging and “sampling” of American and other foreign rap and hip-hop. There is no question in my mind that the music coming out of Iran today is much more impressive in every aspect than the vast majority of what is being produced in Los Angeles by Iranian-Americans. In this context, we can claim that the rise of a genuine popular (underground) music in Iran is the beginning of the end of the would-be Iranian pop star in Los Angeles.

7sang.com - In Iran, this is the first time that subjects like sex and drugs enter the media, and it has happened by rap music. Before that, although people used such language in daily life, but it has never been used in any music, paper, movie, etc. What social changes have resulted in this matter and what other social changes may occur as the result of it?

Semati - This is partly a reflection of rap’s own history, as it came out of a violent and decaying social location, and has persisted as an aesthetic dimension, and a tool in marketing of, certain genres of rap (e.g., “gangster rap.”). Various groups in America have condemned gangster’s rap violence and disrespect and exploitative attitudes towards women, for example. Blacks have condemned it for perpetuating stereotypes about blacks, and for using a language that belongs to a hateful past (racism toward blacks in America history). The appearance of this trend in Iran appears to be similar and different compared to the rap experience in the United States. In both places using such language is a marker of “street cred” (street credibility). This concept has some relationship to the notion of “jahel” of the past in Iranian culture. In America such language and “image” have sometimes been used as a marketing strategy to sell more records. What appears to lead rappers in Iran toward using such language and imagery is a convergence of this dimension of “foreign” rap and the status of rap as an underground music, by definition an “outlaw” practice that is to some measure free to disregard the perceived boundaries of social and cultural norms. Sometimes one outlaw practice tends to enable or accommodate other outlaw practices. However, underground cultural trends tend to lose their appeal to the rebellious youth once they have been brought out of the underground scene and given a space to practice within the boundaries of official culture. That is the experience in the West anyway.

7sang.com - How much is Iranian underground music, Rap or Rock, an imitation of western music? Is there any Iranian creativity or Iranian characteristic in it? Are these kinds of music western or they can be adapted to Iranian culture?

Semati - This is another complicated question, especially its last two points. The notion of “sampling” that led to the creation of rap (using “turntables and a microphone” as pioneer rappers did), which meant taking existing songs and sounds and creating new expressions in words and sound, indicates that imitation and borrowing, as I have already indicated, is not unique to Iran. Rock history is also difficult to conceive without acknowledging borrowing, some of which are clearly transnational. Some have argued that even if rap came out of an American experience as a genre, its roots are too diverse to be merely an American experience. The parallel here is cinema. Some have argued that film from the very beginning is a transnational industry and creation, and the notion of national cinema is, partially, a misnomer. We should also add that, at least from a theoretical perspective, rap is already part of the Iranian culture insofar as one cannot draw sharp distinctions between boundaries of “inside” and an “outside” in the age of globalization and transnational media. I need to be careful here because I do not wish to be misunderstood. The theoretical point is that many cultural experiences today (sometimes we call them cultural globalization) are subject to “deterritorialization.” This concept implies the detachment of social and cultural practices from specific localities, or the erosion of the “natural” relation of culture to specific geographical and social territories. This does not mean that our youths will be blind to our own Persian and Islamic traditions. Nor does it mean that our youths will not be able to “indigenize” these cultural practices on their own terms. Fortunately, Iranian youths seem to have a very strong sense of their own roots and identity. A proud nation with a rich artistic and cultural heritage and tradition such as ours will know how to bend these cultural forms to its own needs and local sensibilities and tastes. However, it does mean that isolating one culture form another in the name of “difference” is not as easy as it used to be, on both empirical and theoretical grounds. Sometimes the practical effect is not desirable. In case of cinema, for example, if we were to mark Iranian cinema as vastly “different” from other world cinema histories and traditions, we might isolate it and thus not able to convince other markets to see it or buy it. Classifying art as “indigenous” in some cases has led to isolating it from the international art market and festivals to the point of causing harm to it financially (e.g., aborigines’ art in Australia).

7sang.com - What is the future of Iranian underground music? In what direction will underground music lead the society?

Semati - I suspect that the underground music is here to stay. It is likely that this music will produce some outstanding work of popular culture and some work that might be less than desirable (just as it is the case in any other society). If I say that this music is here to stay it is because it is fueled by local youth passions and desires and external global youth cultures. A society that produces an amazing cinema, an interesting television, a vibrant print culture and a profound literary tradition to back it up, and a remarkable Internet presence that partakes of global culture will likely continue to make a music that reflects and contributes to these trends and realities. In this particular context, it might be more accurate to ask not in what direction will underground music lead society, but in what direction will society lead underground music.

Interview: Mohammad Mahdi Mowlaei
Translated by Nina JamshidNejd